Conserv Discussion Forum

This sounds like capatalist propagandizing cop out to me. I thought sustainability and local production were about the environment AND people as community members helping each other- not merely out for a profit. Your current prices, even for those of us who do conserve fuel (as you suggest) by driving very little, carpooling and using alternative sources of transportation, will force many to opt out of biofuel as a viable alternative fuel source simply because we can not afford it. You say use less, but if we are not buying as often what does that do to your precious profit? I beg you reconsider your prices… I am sure as a business working toward a progressive, socially and environmentally conscious business model you can see it is in the best interest of the community as well as setting a standard for other businesses to model.

I’m not complaining about fuel prices, but only from the stand point that its near impossible to reduce diesel prices without expanding oil development and adding refinery capacity here in North America. As such it seems most stations will price biodiesel in line with petro diesel. Added to the issue is that the B99 this station sells is being transported in out of state probably by trucks running petro diesel which adds to the cost.

One solution is to find a local source of B99 in california to reduce costs [last week B99 was being sold in Hawaii.... Hawaii [!!] for 3.49$ /gallon].

As B99 prices reach 5$ a gallon in the Los Angeles area , it may become pointless to sell it. At that point it becomes feasible to run Food grade oils as fuel at that price range provided you convert your vehicle to run SVO/WVO. Adding a heated tank/and water separation system you can start fueling up at Costco using bulk jugs.

I priced making my own B99, and factoring in equipment purchase, water, methanol, and wvo oil source, I’m looking at 6000$ initial setup costs to be able to process 40 gallons of B99 every 48 hours at 2.00$ a gallon. I’m considering implementing this once my truck is paid off. This is using reprocessed WVO being used as chicken feed supplement in drums at about $1.50 a gallon. If you can find a restaurant willing to give away appropriate WVO this cost can drop down to 1$ per gallon if your feedstock WVO is “free”.

I think the reason Conserv Fuel’s B99 prices is above the curve is to offset the transportation expense.

I’ll still tank up at Conserv fuel when I’m in the area but I’m already at the point of having to run B5 and B20 at various times because many stations are dropping B99 due to LA County’s stupid regulations.

As Kris Moeller has said, “sourcing” and “transportation” contributes to the cost of biofuels.  Presently, what we require, more than folks making their own B99, is using our community as a pressure point in confronting the special interests.  We need to get the variances passed.  Then, if you like, make your own B99 and sell it to Conserv Fuel and others.  Without the backing of State Regulations it’s going to be slow-going.  Write to Senators Boxer and Feinstein, those on energy committees, etc.  Otherwise, continue to watch petroleum fuel and alternatives rise to $150+ per barrel before September when it will once again “relax” after Labor Day.  Don’t blame Conserv Fuel, which stands alone in Los Angeles County as making an effort.  If you love the environment and wish to make energy policy changes, you are willing to pay a premium, if you can.

Well, I’ve always wondered about E85 fuel prices. I figured considering not too many cars can run the fuel why have it priced so high? But then again I don’t care I love driving 15 minutes to Conserv Fuel and filling up my car. I know at least I’m helping the environment somewhat ... and my money isn’t going overseas to fund Habib…

What a crock..

“What a crock” sums it up for me as well. I do not belive that B99 needs to be sold at a higher price than Dino diesel!!!

Kris I truly appreciate what the company is doing.  I love to pay for your B99 (and have been for a year now) After all the posts, I still dont understand the absurd high price.  Its 99 percent veggie oil. That veggie oil is produced and transported within the US.  Its making it very difficult for me to convince others to experiment.  I will continue to pump that wont change but it is pushing me to figure out a way to produce it myself.  I guess if that happens then that is the most efficient way. I know i am repeating some of the same info in other posts but I feel compelled to express.  I dont want to add negativity I just want to express..hense “forum”.  Thats the beauty of feeling empowered by what we do..how many other stations have a forum??
ohh right NONE.
I thank you.
Work on that price and continue posting info

Of course there is the option of getting your fuel from the Los Angeles Biodiesel Co-op.
Our price is currently $5.20 a gallon for fuel that is manufactured by a BQ-9000
accredited producer. The feedstock for this fuel is used cooking oils, no food for fuel
debate for us.

Unlike ConservFuel, we do not mark up our fuel for a profit margin, than again, we have
no rent, employees salaries, 4% payback for credit cards, utilities, UST permit fees etc. to
worry about. What we buy the fuel for is what the coop members get the fuel for. Now,
thats a real fair deal.

Note, that means that we are having to buy our fuel for $5.20 per gallon in 1,000 gallon
deliveries. Granted ConservFuel gets bigger unit purchases/deliveries and thus a better
price, I know because I buy the fuel for the Co-op. If I bought in bigger quantity I can get
the price down a couple of cents per gallon.

Yes, ConservFuel is selling biodiesel for an inflated, petroleum pegged price, but it is not
ConservFuel that sets the price. Kris is having to buy the biodiesel he sells from producers
who establish what they will sell their product for.

Yes, the price of biodiesel is pegged to the price of petrodiesel, it’s a fact of life in our free
market economy. This is one reason why over half of the biodiesel produced in this
country last year was exported to Europe where it can be sold in competition with the
higher fuel prices over there. Think of it, if you are a biodiesel producer, you can ship your
biodiesel to the west coast by rail (@ about $.30 a gallon) or by sea to europe for about
$.20 per gallon. Now do you want to sell your fuel for $4.00 over here, or 4 euro over
there. It’s a free market kind of thing.

ConservFuel is now having to switch their supplier because they just raised their price by
almost one dollar per gallon. Guess what, it will probably be the exact same fuel provided
by the Co-op.

So don’t flog ConservFuel for their pricing. They can not change what is beyond their
control.

Get out your flog and begin beating our sagging economy, the petroleum industry for
tanking the dollar on the global economy, the rising populations in other parts of the
world who are competing for energy and food, the war which is making one big sucking
sound of our resources and tax dollars. Really flog the commodity traders/speculators who
are not just trading our futures on the market, but the futures of our children.

Yes, we all would love to get back to the recent days when our biodiesel was only couple
of cents more expensive that petro. The first biodiesel I bought for the Co-op way back in
January of 06 was only $3.16 per gallon. Back then it was expensive too, but we were
doing it for reasons beyond the economic ones. Sort of like Hebrew National, “We Answer
To A Higher Authority”.

So, go ahead. punish ConservFuel for providing us with an option. Go ahead, support the
petroleum industry which is taking a product out of the ground for about five dollars a
barrel and selling to to you for five dollars a GALLON.

I can at least smile when I drive down the road.

Kent Bullard
Biodiesel Advocate and User since the turn of the century.
Co-Founder of the Los Angeles Biodiesel Co-op
Founder of the 3,500 member and growing Southern California Biodiesel Users Group
Citizen of this Earth

Thanks for the insight Kent.  My post may have read too negatively.  I appreciate the knowledge supplied.
Keep on keepin on! and we will all continue to bite our tongues and focus on having this option avail to us.

Gerard
A member of SOCAL BUG

First of all, I genuinely appreciate everyone’s support, each of you are proving that there is a demand for biodiesel (B99) in Los Angeles. 

In response to all of the comments regarding Conserv Fuel’s biodiesel pricing, I would like to pose a challenge to all Conserv Fuel customers:

I challenge anyone to find Conserv Fuel a local supplier of ASTM D6751 biodiesel (B99) for the same price or less than the price of diesel #2 on a consistent basis.

I’ve been working hard to ensure that Conserv Fuel sells only the highest quality fuel at an affordable price, but the problem is that there aren’t a lot of choices when comes to biodiesel supply in Los Angeles.

I appreciate everyone’s input, but please understand that my goal is to make biodiesel commercially available to the LA market.  This is an accomplishment that has yet to be achieved by anyone else ever and there is good reason for this.  SELLING BIODIESEL IS NOT EASY! If it was such a lucrative business, don’t you think that there would be at least one other gas station in the city selling it?

I’m perplexed by the fact that people have this unrealistic notion that biodiesel should be less expensive than diesel #2? I would like to explain why this is not the case.  Although biodiesel is not a petroleum derived product, its feedstock inputs are correlated to petroleum products.  Methanol, one of the main ingredients, is a petroleum derived ingredient.  Most importantly, the main ingredient in biodiesel in the U.S. is virgin soy bean oil.  Unfortunately, today soy along with all agricultural products are highly correlated to the price of petrol due to their dependence on conventional energy sources, such as diesel #2, to bring them to market. It is my hope that I’ll one day be able to offer biodiesel made from algae, not soy bean oil.

For now we will be supply biodiesel derived from mostly yellow grease, but unfortunately. It’s local and sustainable, but unfortunately not cheap!

Sure, one could turn to processing their own vegi oil or yellow grease, but that is not as easy as it might appear to be.  Most of us don’t have the spare time to commit to process our own fuel to the quality level needed to not cause serious damage in their own or their friends engines.

Probably the biggest factor currently driving up the price of our biodiesel in the U.S. is the demand from Europe.  Domestic producers can sell their finished blended biodiesel to the European market and still claim a Federal tax credit of a dollar per gallon.

As you can see, there are a number of extraneous factors driving up the price of biodiesel. Conserv Fuel is doing its best to provide the highest quality biodiesel to the general public for the best price possible. 

Thanks again for making this future wonder fuel available today!

Kris,

I visited your station yesterday and was very impressed. My hat’s off to you.

Do you have plans to open a wvo pump? I realize that would entail collecting and filtering the wvo yourself, but it would seem the next logical step (Before you put in your hydrogen pump ;>).

Peace,
Andrew Koenig

Kristopher thanks for taking the time to give a thorough reply.
That was quite helpful and cleared things up for the novice in myself and gave me a better picture of all things Conservfuel.
Its very excited to know that you are paying great attn to algae technology!
It appears to be the answer.

Keep up the great work.
Gerard

Kris Moller - Mar 17, 2008 08:44am

It’s important for our customers to realize that we at the mercy of the market, the price that we’re charging our customers is a reflections of what our costs are. We would love to keep the price as low as possible, but we can’t lose money selling the fuel.

Oil Price Information Service gave me a number for Los Angeles’s rack price (i.e. wholesale price) for biodiesel.

What does Conserv pay for the rack price for biodiesel in Los angeles?

Kristopher Moller - Jun 14, 2008 04:13pm

I’m perplexed by the fact that people have this unrealistic notion that biodiesel should be less expensive than diesel #2? I would like to explain why this is not the case.  Although biodiesel is not a petroleum derived product, its feedstock inputs are correlated to petroleum products.  Methanol, one of the main ingredients, is a petroleum derived ingredient.  Most importantly, the main ingredient in biodiesel in the U.S. is virgin soy bean oil.  Unfortunately, today soy along with all agricultural products are highly correlated to the price of petrol due to their dependence on conventional energy sources, such as diesel #2, to bring them to market. It is my hope that I’ll one day be able to offer biodiesel made from algae, not soy bean oil.

Soy has doubled in price in the last 12 months but animal fats have more than compensated to keep production booming. (previously soy at .60 a pound and at 7.5 pounds of soy per gallon needed it comes out to 4.50 to make a gallon of soy biodiesel. With a $1.00 tax credit it’s 3.50.

The US Commodities market is pricing yellow grease at 0.365 cents a pound (7.6 pounds of yellow grease per gallon), or 2.77 a gallon (add a 0.50 tax credit for being a recycled oil and it’s $2.27. Yet with the federal and state taxes it goes back up 0.639 cents to $2.90 a gallon.

fixed costs of running station+
transportation costs +
credit card fees(should give cash discount!)
= ?

What are the profit margins is what people really want to know. People do not want to be gouged at the pump. Everyone can accept reasonable profits but not gouging.

Therefore what are the wholesale prices that you pay? Oil Price Information Service gave me a number but I’d like to compare it.

Lawstud--The important thing to remember is that the tax credit (up to $1.00 per gallon) is given to the blender (often an oil company), not to the fuel station. The credit is supposed to be an incentive for the blenders to put in place the infrastructure needed to bring the fuel to market.  Additionally, it was hoped that there would be some extra left over, passed on to the fuel station and then the consumer.  There may be very little if any of the tax credit passed to the consumer.  A senator or 2 have been quoted that the Big Oil lobby worked this wording into the tax credit law at the 11th hour, so that they would profit from alternative fuel one way or the other.

Here’s a link describing the blender’s (NOT CONSUMER’S) tax credit:

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=571